Chic Harley, Justin Fields and how Michigan robbed an Ohio State football player of immortality: Buckeye Talk podcast

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Which former Ohio State football player best exemplifies what it means to be a Buckeye?

That’s what we’ll spend the next week trying to figure out with the help of the Buckeye Talk Subtext subscribers. Over 150 people were considered but only 32 could make the official bracket as Stephen Means, Stefan Krajisnik and Andrew Gillis discuss some of the greatest players in history. But this isn’t about just being the best. It’s about telling the story of a program and who we can’t tell that story without.

That continues with Part 2 of our first round.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk. I promise you this is the longest part of the week. And I know Monday’s part was long, this one’s gonna be long too, but the brackets are gonna get smaller. We’re gonna go from 32 to 16, and then we’re 16 to eight, so it’ll get smaller by the time. But also, I don’t know, it actually might get longer, because we might go in more depth about some of these guys as we get closer and closer to the end here. We’re on to the Paul Brown region. Paul Brown, National Championship head coach for Ohio State. Headlining this region is Eddie George, Heisman Trophy winner.

was there from 1992 to 1995. He is now Bowling Green’s head coach and he’s going up against the 30 seed. Brian Heartline was a wide receiver from 2005, 2008, had a quality NFL career and since 2019 he has been the official wide receivers coach and he was the interim wide receivers coach in 2018. He actually came back the year before that as a GA before taking over the role and now he has.

Stephen Means (56:35.619)

essentially put Ohio State’s wide receiver room in a world that maybe we’ll never see again and have never seen really anywhere where he’s got five straight first round draft picks.

Stephen Means (56:49.733)

Steph, how much does, let me ask you a question.

I know we’re only taking into account the coaching measure, but so much.

But if we were talking about Brian Hartline, the assistant coach, is there a case that he should get a win over Eddie George? That stronger, like would he be a higher seed if we were just talking about Brian Hartline, the assistant coach?

Stefan Krajisnik (57:14.66)

Yeah, he would be. But then, you know, then we’re introducing Woody Hayes and Jim Trestle and guys like that into the conversation. It gets a little tougher. I think part of the reason we decided not to is because Woody Hayes had however many years it was like to build his greatest book I resume, whereas Archie Griffin had four years to build greatest book I resume. that’s kind of why. So that’s why I struggle with it. I just think I think Heartline.

Stephen Means (57:19.46)

Right.

Stefan Krajisnik (57:41.222)

They didn’t do enough as a player to be able to compete with Eddie George, even with the accomplishments as a coach. I’m still going Eddie George. Yeah, hard lines. If we’re if we’re taking coaching account, I think hard lines higher on this list. I think I still go Eddie George though.

Stephen Means (57:53.859)

Is that how you look at it Andrew?

Andrew Gillis (57:56.204)

Yeah. cause it, it’s like, is it even fair to consider coaches? Like that’s the other question where it’s like, is it, is it worth it? Cause I mean, look, Eddie, Eddie George is a bowling green. Like maybe one day he’s at Ohio state and we have this conversation in six years. It’s like, it does he go higher than three, guess there’s not really much room to climb, but like, we’ll see how this bracket unfolds. So I, I still think it’s Eddie.

Stephen Means (58:12.132)

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (58:23.246)

I think even when you consider the coaching, I think especially if you don’t, it’s even more Eddie. So yeah, this to me was one of the easier ones that I did.

Stefan Krajisnik (58:33.476)

Yeah, if hardline if we took into coaching if we took coaching a little bit more into account He’d be a higher seed and then maybe he would get a matchup where he can go But like when you’re a 30 seed you’re gonna have to face Eddie George Who’s maybe the second best player in Ohio State history? No, that’s always gonna be tough

Stephen Means (58:51.203)

The only reason I think he’s the outlier in considering what he is as a coach is because there’s two people on this bracket who are not here if Brian Harline doesn’t exist.

Stephen Means (59:05.637)

But I think I agree and so do our Texas Eddie George got 79 % of the vote.

Stefan Krajisnik (59:11.576)

that’s actually closer than I thought it was gonna be,

Stephen Means (59:14.467)

I think it’s because of. I think it’s because there’s two people on this bracket who are here because they signed up to play for Brian Harbaugh. And I mean, I genuinely think that’s what it is, because he was fine as a player. I think his career in terms of statistics might actually be comparable to a healthy Julian Fleming in 2022, where it’s like, OK, you’re good, but you’re not, you know. Could you get plenty NFL? Yes, and he ended up maximizing his NFL career, obviously, and being better than.

maybe even his college career, but him as a coach, he’s in such a different stratosphere as a coach, and I think it’s what pushed, I think it’s why he made the bracket, and it’s also how he ends up getting 21 % of the votes there. Okay, Orlando Pace, Chris Olave. This one’s more lopsided than I thought it would be. I’m assuming both of you guys are gonna pick Orlando Pace. Is that fair?

Why?

Stefan Krajisnik (01:00:10.406)

I think Orlando Pace is helped by the fact that he is so renowned and dominant and celebrated at a position where not many people are. So when you talk about offensive line,

Stephen Means (01:00:21.935)

Mm-hmm.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:00:28.142)

It’s easy to forget names. It’s easy to be like, who was the starting left tackle on that team? Who was the starting center on that team? Who was the starting right guard on that team? It’s easy to forget. When you say offensive line Ohio State, there is literally one name that’s going to come up every single time. And if you’re in the Heisman conversation as an offensive lineman. Dude. Absolute dude.

Stephen Means (01:00:44.911)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (01:00:51.557)

Yeah.

Andrew, did you take any consideration in Chris O’Loughlin?

Andrew Gillis (01:01:01.194)

No. And one of the reasons that I didn’t is because I think it matters when like, look, you have all of these accolades and you have all of these awards and like, yeah, Chris Alave was all Big Ten for a few years. Orlando Pace, the Outland Trophy, Jim Parker Trophy, unanimous All-American, Big Ten Most Valuable Player of the Year, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get on the line. I think being the best ever.

at your position mattered to me. Being the best, like you could debate, and maybe this is a future pod, we could debate the best quarterback, running back, tight end, linebacker, we could debate everything at Ohio State.

I don’t know how much of a debate we’re having for best tackle ever at Ohio State. Frankly, best offensive lineman ever at Ohio State. So to me, that mattered. And to me, him being that type of player was enough for me. that was, I thought that, I mean, look, he was just so good.

when you’re that good and you change the way that people talk about a position, I think that that helps.

Stephen Means (01:02:25.253)

I think Chris Olave got a bad draw for the first round. I think of anybody we’ve talked about of the lower seats, he’s got the worst draw.

Andrew Gillis (01:02:28.534)

He 100 %ed.

Stephen Means (01:02:36.323)

Because how many people have the moments he has in his four years as an Ohio State football player? When you just list off all the moments. I mean, his introduction to the Ohio State fan base was the Michigan game. With two touchdowns and a block punt. And then what he did in the Clemson game where that entire story arc of being the guy who broke off the route, which wasn’t supposed to and it led to the interception for a team who made one national championship. And then to redeem that.

the following year by just roasting Clemson in the sugar bowl and getting his revenge. He’s Ohio State’s all time leader in passing catches. And I mean, we’re talking about the way Ohio State recruits receiver. Chris Olavi was not a five star. He was not he didn’t arrive with the recruiting pedigree that Amaka, Buka and Jack Smith and Jigbutt and Garrett Wilson and Marvin Harrison had were three of those guys for five stars. And Marvin Harrison was the top 90 recruit. He was a three star kid that

Brian Day didn’t even go out to see him. He was going out to see the quarterback who ended up at Indiana. And because he was watching the quarterback, he saw Chris Olave. And so Chris Olave ends up at Ohio State. And I mean, we talk a lot about that 2018 recruiting class and how it really didn’t live up to the hype. He’s like the third, he’s like, if you go at the lowest rated guys, he’s the third lowest rated guy in that class.

And that’s the first round draft pick. can, mean, the run Ohio State is on is great. He and Garrett started that run. I just, he got a bad draw. You guys are right. It’s Orlando pace and I’m not going to make the case for Chris Olavi to win over Orlando pace. But I do think there is a draw where if Chris Olavi just gets a few more votes when we’re tallying up names and let’s just say he’s the 19 seed, I think he could have gone on the Elite Eight run.

in this thing, unfortunately that’s just, sometimes you get a badger on the NCAA tournament. Mike Dawes, Rex Kern, Mike Dawes, the number 11 seed, safety from 1999 to 02, famously came back for the 02 season as the guy who could have went pro and helped win that team to a national championship. And then Rex Kern, another super soft member who won national championship, 1968 to 1970. Andrew, you first, Dawes or Kern?

Andrew Gillis (01:04:58.606)

I went with Mike Doss. Something that I thought was interesting when I was looking him up, he won a state championship at every level. He won in high school, he won in college at Ohio State, and he won in the NFL, which I thought was just a really unique kind of tidbit to him. But yeah, to me, Mike Doss was the pick here. think really like the accolades and the Michigan and the title were a lot. And I know Rex Kern had that.

But maybe this was my recency bias. Maybe this was my, you know, overlooking the guy from a previous generation. like three time first team all big 10, two time first team all American national championship, won the Jack Tatum trophy, unanimous all American, a local kid from Ohio. Like, yeah, I went with my DOS.

Stephen Means (01:05:50.309)

Touchdown club of Columbus used to have all these really fun rewards and they got rid of them. They had a Jack Tatum award They had a chick Harley award and they just stopped doing them after 2018. It’s a little disappointing Any pushback Stefan DOS Kern? Are you DOS?

Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:07.64)

I voted DOS and I actually think this is the one I struggle with the most. I think I struggle with this one more than any other one in the bracket. And I know we’re to come back to the Chris Carter debate, like, Rex Kern had some moments and some accolades. Beating OJ Simpson is kind of badass, you know?

Stephen Means (01:06:11.395)

and now you’ll change.

Stephen Means (01:06:20.239)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:06:33.241)

Yeah, it is.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:36.206)

Like beating USC then is is memorable. So I hate that I went with DOS as well because I really don’t want us to overlook how good Rex Kern was again in an era where You’re doing a million things on the field like he He deserves his accolades and I don’t know what I’m curious to see what the voting divide here is because if he won I would not be upset

Stephen Means (01:07:01.317)

the record Orlando pace beat Chris Olabe 89 % of the votes for Orlando pace. Dawes got 62 % of the votes. Got 38%. I mean Mike Dawes, I think you can draw a direct line from Jack Tatum to Mike Dawes to Caleb Downs.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:09.926)

thought it was gonna be closer than that.

Stephen Means (01:07:21.07)

no, I’m sorry. Jack Tatum, Mike Doss, Malik Hooker, Caleb Downs.

That’s the lineage.

Stephen Means (01:07:32.643)

Okay, got one more tight one.

not Chick Harley as a 19 seed versus Justin Fields as a 14 seed. I think that’s right. Yeah, that is right. Chick Harley versus Justin Fields. So Andrew, you’ve got the guy who’s the reason why Ohio Stadium exists and Ryan Day’s first starting quarter.

Good luck. Make your pick.

Andrew Gillis (01:08:07.054)

Yeah. This was hard. This was one of the harder ones. I did go Chick Harley. You mentioned that we talked about the quote about the way that he played, which was that he it was bit cross between music and cannon fire and it brought your heart up to your ears.

Stephen Means (01:08:18.181)

think that’s the right.

Andrew Gillis (01:08:36.558)

Look, Chick Harley, his numbers retired three time consensus, big 10, three time first team, all big 10. He’s a member of the College Football Hall of Fame. I understand it’s a different era, and this was why it was so hard because Chick Harley. 1916, 17 and 18. Or 16, 17 and 19. He was a consensus all American. Justin Fields was the second team all American in 2019.

Stephen Means (01:09:06.084)

you

Andrew Gillis (01:09:06.528)

The game literally was 100 years apart. So it was one of those things where it’s like, man, like how do you do that? So I didn’t almost even think it was fair to compare aura or anything like that in this conversation because I don’t Well, that but it’s like one it’s like it’s like if you played college football before the United States entered World War one, I don’t think.

Stephen Means (01:09:22.873)

Because one of the reasons stadium exists.

Andrew Gillis (01:09:35.082)

aura was exactly something that people knew about or had. So it’s like, I didn’t consider that. So frankly, this to me was an accolades conversation. And you mentioned the stadium a lot. I get it. But to me, when you compare these players, it’s like, who’s the greater Buckeye? I’ll go with the guy who had the bigger accolades, even though, like, again, I mentioned this with like some of the linemen. Chick Harley was 5′8″, 165.

If you’re 5′8″, 165 and you say, Ryan Day, I would like to play football at Ohio State. He’s going to laugh at you and say, well, we have a position open as a team manager because you’re not going to play football here. You’re not going to play. It’s just not going to happen. And Shaqarli is one of the greatest Buckeyes of all time. So I went with him.

Stephen Means (01:10:20.517)

You want with Harley or you want with the other? Okay.

Andrew Gillis (01:10:21.848)

I want the car.

Stephen Means (01:10:25.701)

Stefan.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:10:27.814)

I also went with Chick Harley. Maybe the 14 19 matchup is our 512 where you know there’s always gonna be an upset that gets picked. Yeah, I mean he’s got everything like every category is is elite so I don’t really have much hesitation there. We should also a texture pointed out to us. I don’t know if we said this on the pod where we did the music in a cannon fire quote that that was written by James Thurber who is a legend in his own right. So if he talks about you like that, yeah you would.

Stephen Means (01:10:54.565)

Sure. Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:10:57.636)

You get the upset. I don’t know if we mentioned that that’s where the quote came from. So I want to make sure that we gave Thurber his credit because dog legend. And if you get described like that by that guy, you win. You move on.

Stephen Means (01:11:11.183)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I knew it was ThurberCorp. That’s why I said we gotta get back to that. We gotta get back to that. Okay.

From the 419, I gotta say Justin Fields because I’m guessing a lot of people probably don’t say him. One of my personal favorites, so I’d love to shout him out. His accolades, he’s a two-time Big Ten champ. He got to the National Championship game. He’s a Heiser Trophy finalist. Led one of the best OSU teams I’ve seen, the 2019 team. Also didn’t throw a single interception to the Michigan State game in 2019. That’s true. And it’s a funny story. This is me talking now. Funny story. We were asking him that entire week about how he hadn’t thrown an interception since his senior year of high school.

at Harrison and down in Georgia. And essentially, then he threw the interception against Michigan State that Saturday and went, yeah, all you were asking me about it and you jinxed me. And then he didn’t throw another interception until the fiesta ball against Clemson. threw that game. Team success, same as the first one, memorable moments. I mean, good God, these can go on for days. First of all, welcome to Columbus run will always be great. He’s talking about the 50 yard run against Florida Atlantic where he kept it on a read play.

And it was like, and that’s why they went and got Justin Fields and Gus Johnson’s like, hello Columbus. It was awesome. Injury comeback throws against the team up North and Clemson chef’s kiss. Also back to the no interception thing. I’ll never forget that one interview where they asked about the picks. I didn’t see this before. And he said something like, well, to be honest, I just hope I never throw one. And then he threw.

Michigan stuff team up North stuff speaks for itself blowout and made them duck in 2020 overall Buckeye or Genuinely still my favorite quarterback I’ve seen in my lifetime electric runner and the deep throws were just amazing on top of this the man never lost a regular season game blew out Michigan got three Benzo Clemson never had to worry about much He always showed out in the big games overall my favorite OSU player probably ever

Stephen Means (01:13:08.677)

I think if the Michigan game in 2020 doesn’t get canceled, Justin Fields is higher because then he’s the quarterback responsible for potentially getting Jim Harbaugh fired. Because again, Ryan Day was not talking about hanging 121, 22, 23, or 24. He was talking about the 2020 season. And that was the year they had Justin Fields, Chris O’Loughn, Garrett Wolfson. would have hung a, I don’t know if they got, got the 200, cause that’s hard. But that, I mean, they scored 56 and 62 the two years prior. So.

You do the math on what that team would have done in 2020. From the 412, first of all, Steven, it appears to me that a user can respond to the survey multiple times. I’ll try to fill out about a thousand forms so that Vic Genowitz and Chick Harley make the next round. Respect to you. Game in the system. There’s nothing wrong with that. Steven, here’s a scoop on Chick. Chick Harley, the Buckeye blueprint. Who was Chick Harley born on September 15th, 1895 in Chicago, hence the nickname Chick.

So is that gonna be chic?

I don’t know. Harley moved to Columbus, Ohio at the age of 12. He became a multi-sports phenom at East High School, where his football games often outdrew Ohio State at Ohio Field. Recruited by Ohio State’s Phi Gamma Delta fraternity, he enrolled in 1915 and played freshman football before rewriting the Buckeye history from 1916 to 1919. Harley wasn’t just a player. He was a one-man revolution who transformed Ohio State from a football afterthought into a national contender. His on-field dominance

Harley was a do-it-all halfback in the era where players went both ways, excelling as a runner, passer, kicker, punter, and defensive back. His career stats and achievements are staggering, especially considering the shorter schedules and preemptive equipment of the time. His career records, he led Ohio State to a 21-1-in-1 record across 16, 17, and 19. He missed 18 for World War I services. Again, war can sometimes get in the way of things. That crazy old thing.

Stephen Means (01:15:08.067)

His only loss was a nine to seven heartbreaker to Illinois in 1919 sealed by a last minute field goal scoring tally 201 points in 24 games, 23 touchdowns personal sources, a remarkable hall when games were lower scoring all American honors. He was an Ohio State first team consistence all American all three years that he played first time, first three time all American earning spots on Walter Kemp’s authoritative lists.

I miss those types of lists. need to bring those back to bring back everything from the 1960s from a sports perspective. Big 10 championships guided the Buckeyes to their first ever titles in 1916, going 7-0 in 1917, going 8-0 in one dominating with 258 points scored to 29 allowed in 1916 alone. People just don’t know more than 100 years later, he freaking built Ohio Stadium. Stop the polling. No one born after 1950 should be allowed to vote.

In a pinch, can anoint my classmate, Jack Tatum, but Chick was the man. He built the stadium. He was so awesome that the university said more people need to see this live. And they built him a stadium to watch one man. It’s Chick Harley. This is our first upset of the bracket. And it’s because it’s a 512 game. there’s those, I don’t even think you can call 512 upsets anymore because we all know they’re going to happen. Justin Fields is a phenomenal player.

Chick Harley is the reason Justin Fields played where he played in Ohio Stadium. So I’m not, he built the freaking stadium for the dude. You know how good they have to, you know how good you have to be at something? For people to go, you know what? More people need to see you live. So let’s build something bigger so they can see it.

Stephen Means (01:16:57.355)

Chef’s kiss, it’s beautiful. One more region and then we can come back.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:17:02.182)

They need to add seats for Jeremiah Smith. Make it even bigger. People need to see this.

Stephen Means (01:17:07.685)

If you know more people need to see this, forget TV, see it in person. Let’s take our final break and then we’ll head into our final region here, the Urban Maya region, but also Andrew and I can come back and talk about Jack Tatum some more here on Buckeye Talk. We’re back here on Buckeye Talk. Stephen Means, Tafon Kreisick and Andrew Gillis. Get the text 614-350-3315. We’re going long simply because there’s a lot of names to talk about and we want to at least respect all of these names even if we’re not gonna go long on some of these because we know they’re gonna make it through. Chris Spielman.

Heads up the Urban Meyer region. He’s the number four overall seed, played linebacker from 1984 to 1987. He’s going up against Mike Vrabel who played linebacker from 1993 to 1996. He was also the assistant coach from 2011 to 2013. He has since been in the NFL and he’s not coming back to college no matter how many times people on Twitter try to tell you that they should go get Mike Vrabel to be their head coach. I don’t think this is a conversation, Andrew. think Chris Peel is the winner. Cool.

Andrew Gillis (01:18:03.394)

Yeah, it’s feeling, we don’t need to have a huge debate.

Stephen Means (01:18:06.435)

We won’t be. It’s tough on. I’m all American. He’s awesome. got.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:18:07.622)

Three time All-American, yeah.

Andrew Gillis (01:18:10.21)

Which by the way, I’m glad you said that about Vrabel because I was so sick that like three week period after Michigan before the Tennessee game, I was so sick of hearing Mike Vrabel’s name. I was done. was done. So I’m glad at all. We don’t have to have a much more, much more significant Mike Vrabel conversation now.

Stephen Means (01:18:19.929)

Yeah, I hope. Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:18:26.661)

I do think it’s funny that Mike Vrabel is coaching at the place we keep joking that Ryan Day is going to end up at and Ryan Day is at Ohio State. I think that is very much hilarious. But yeah, Trish Spielman got 80 % of the vote. JT Barrett quarterback from 2013 to 2017. He’s the number five seed in the Mecca. Buka has the number 28 seed. the other recently left Buckeye on this list.

2021 to 2024 former first former number one wide receiver in the 21 class spent four years here He’s Ohio State’s all-time leader and catches and second and receiving touchdowns and now he’s a first-round draft pick to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers JT bear his Ohio State’s all-time leader in passing yards and passing touchdowns He was not drafted though. I Don’t think this one’s close either Because this is a Buckeye conversation and not a better player conversation Stefan

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:24.57)

Yeah, I agree.

Stephen Means (01:19:27.301)

82 % of the vote for JT Barrett Andrews that Okay

Andrew Gillis (01:19:30.316)

That that sounds right. like the other part of this too, is that you could say, a Mecca won a national championship. Well, JT snapped his ankle in the Michigan game. And like, what if he doesn’t? I mean, look, there’s like, first off, if JT doesn’t get hurt, Cardale is not on this list. But maybe he’s still with the national championship anyway. And like, yeah, I guess, you know, we’ll have, you know, I guess we’ll never find that out, but.

Stephen Means (01:19:43.587)

Amen.

Stephen Means (01:19:52.099)

I don’t know.

Stephen Means (01:19:56.549)

It’s a

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (01:20:00.078)

It is an interesting conversation, it’s like, it’s hard to fault a guy for that. And then you map out his career and like you said, greatest Buckeye, Big 10 quarterback of the year, Big 10 freshman of the year. Yeah, it’s tricky.

Stephen Means (01:20:10.501)

It’s a big what if because yes, Cardell, but also Cardell had a skill set I think maximized while house they wasn’t able to run the ball the way they were because he could launch it down the field in the way JT Barrett couldn’t, but that’s not, we’re not here to talk about that today. Okay. Braxton Miller, Joey Bosa. So you got teammates going up against each other. Braxton Miller as the 12 seed started out as a quarterback here in 2011, spent two.

Three years as a starting quarterback, 2011, 2012, 2013, half of the year in 2011, he took over for Joe Bosman. Would have been the starting quarterback in 2014, had he not completely ruined his shoulder going up against Clemson the year before at the close out that season, which is how we got the JT Bear, which is how we got the Cardell Jones. So he misses the entire 2014 season.

and then comes back in 2015 as a wide receiver. And then you’ve got Joey Bosa as the number 21 seed. He was here from 2013 to 2015. He is the first of Larry Johnson’s run of elite defensive lineman though. A guy that’s also on this list, Mike Vrabel and Urban Meyer are the reason why Joey Bosa was a book guy to begin with. So they deserve just so much credit as well. Was this one difficult for you, Stefan?

Stefan Krajisnik (01:21:25.222)

It was a little bit tougher just because of what you mentioned there, kind of what Joey started, you know, in terms of the run that Ohio State had at defensive end, but I did end up going with Braxton though.

Stephen Means (01:21:37.003)

Wanna play contrarian here, Andrew?

Andrew Gillis (01:21:39.316)

No, I texted, I mentioned I was talking to one of my buddies about this and this was the guy that I was texting about with Michael Jenkins when I was so mad. I was texting, I was like, I can’t believe this. So he asked some other questions and you know, he said the guy that you need to talk about is Braxton. And I thought having his kind of opinion on that was really interesting because he had a really good point. thought he said Braxton Miller made Ohio State cool. Not that they weren’t cool before.

but he changed the program. had incredible seasons and that spin move was one of the best highlights I’ve ever seen in my entire life. And I like, I’m not saying that’s the reason you pick him, but I do think it is important to remember like, like when these kids are college players, you have to compare them as players. Like in college, this isn’t like, well, blah, blah, blah. Like Braxton Miller was freaking awesome in college. And I did go Braxton.

It was close, but I did go Braxton.

Stephen Means (01:22:38.863)

We did these Mount Rushmore’s a few years back and my case for why Braxton didn’t deserve to be on the Mount Rushmore. No, he did deserve to be on the Mount Rushmore was because I thought he was Allen Arbysson of Ohio State football. Where there’s sure other people who are maybe better when you’re just talking about pure time, but how many people to your point Andrew were that cool? He he he he an entire generation of Ohio State fans just.

Andrew Gillis (01:23:00.066)

He was cool, man, he was cool.

Stephen Means (01:23:08.165)

It’s Braxton Miller, man. It’s Braxton Miller. It’s the way it’s not just that they were winning. It was the way they were winning that made it so cool with Braxton Miller. And it didn’t matter if he was playing quarterback or wide receiver. It was just kind of the same thing. From the 416, Joy Bosa, great stats all around national championship. Walk off sack against Penn State and more. Therino against Michigan. Buckeye Orr speaks for herself. He also helped them win a national championship.

But I think it’s Braxton Miller and our textures. This one was, I think how it ended up was probably the right way to go about this. 68 % said Braxton Miller, 32 % said Joey Bosa. And I think that’s right. I think that’s right. Joey Bosa. That’s a tough matchup for Joey Bosa, but I think Joey is kind of in the same vein as Chase where it’s about those guys are awesome players, but you can’t tell the urban minor era of college football here in Ohio State without mentioning Braxton Miller.

what he was as a quarterback.

Final game.

Stephen Means (01:24:12.901)

I really wish this dude had a win over Michigan, because I think this could have been an interesting conversation. 13 seed Ted Ginn Jr. wide receiver from 2004 to 06. CJ Stroud quarterback from 2020 to 2022, and he was a starter in 21 and 22.

Stephen Means (01:24:34.038)

Andrews Tedgan 1.

And I think it’s because CJ Stroud is the ultimate victim of Ohio State’s lack of success against Michigan over the last couple of years.

Andrew Gillis (01:24:50.114)

That’s fair. I think that’s a fair point. I think Ted Ginn had like we mentioned the cool factor with Braxton Miller. Ted Ginn had that cool factor. Go look at and this was one of the emotional picks that I made because like I was sitting here on Sunday night as I was looking, we’re recording this on Monday. was sitting through on Sunday night kind of doing some research and stuff. One of the things that I like doing is looking back at like old highlight tapes and

You look up Ted Ginn’s highlight tapes. I think one of them is set to Black Betty, which is a great song for that. it’s just like it just he runs like a gazelle like he’s running and it looks like he’s not even trying. And he’s flying by everybody. And I think he had that cool. my goodness factor that not a lot of other people had. The Michigan stuff matters, I think here. I think aura matters as well, like.

Steven has talked about this like CJ shroud face a lot of criticism in his time at Ohio State and then, you know, his career ends and I think people had started to turn and they definitely turned after that Georgia game. like CJ shroud was awesome. But I think Ted Ginn in a greatest Buckeye conversation was my vote that Ted Ginn was awesome. And I think when you compare the Michigan success and then the aura to I think that matter.

Stephen Means (01:26:13.829)

The fact that Ohio State still hasn’t beat Michigan is also helping turn the tide on CJ in that conversation because you can’t, like CJ’s not the only quarterback who didn’t beat Michigan anymore. It’s a program issue and not just a quarterback issue anymore, but it’s just CJ’s, Stefan, his resume looks so differently if they win one of those games. Like so differently.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:26:41.454)

Yeah, he did not get much help from those around him to kind of help his resume. Because even 2021 as a whole, we’re talking about pretty bad defense and not doing enough to help him win. CJ did everything he could, man.

Stephen Means (01:26:57.807)

I think he might have a case for a top four seed if they don’t lose to Michigan those two years. If let’s just say Michigan doesn’t win. Well, I don’t know. So here’s his.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:27:06.342)

I think you’re gonna have to have a national title, but...

Stephen Means (01:27:14.117)

Everybody was anticipating Georgia, Ohio State in 21 that offense versus Georgia’s defense. That’s what that’s fireworks. And given how Alabama was able to throw the ball all over Georgia before their receivers got hurt. I think Ohio State wouldn’t beat Georgia that year. Cause that’s, that was the difference between the SEC championship game and the national championship game is they had John Metchie and J Mo and the SEC championship game. didn’t have John Metchie and Jim Mo and the Natty and Bryce Shuck had nobody throw the ball to.

So you’re telling me you give CJ, I mean, CJ kind of threw all over him in 2022 with Marv in America. So you’re telling me you give him Jackson Smith, the Jigba, Garrett Wilson and Chris Olave, fully healthy. I think Ohio State might win a national championship. again, if he did, but then you add on the fact that I am about 95 % sure if they don’t lose to Michigan in 2021, CJ wins the Heisman Trophy. Cause he was already a favorite going into that game.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:27:59.334)

Let’s go and see.

Stephen Means (01:28:12.997)

He would have used that game, won that game and then won the big 10 championship game. They would have been 12 and one firmly in the playoff and he already had momentum. He’d have a Heisman Trophy and maybe he’d probably would have won a national championship. These are all potentials, but let’s just say that’s the path it takes. He’s in the conversation with like Joe Burrow and Cam Newton in terms of guys who won the Natty and the Heisman the same year. So that’s how it happens in 2021. In 2022, Michigan and Ohio State are two and three. They’re both undefeated.

And they also lost to Georgia by a point. And they wouldn’t have been playing Georgia in the opening round. They’d have been playing TCU because they were, think they would have been the one seed. Planned TCU that year and he would have won the Heisman. Now I think Andrew 2022 is a little bit more difficult because K the boy is cool and Heisman trophy winner or the trophy voters are dumb. And sometimes you see a dude running around with his head cut off in the backfield and then throwing up all 30 yards down the field. People love that a lot.

Andrew Gillis (01:29:03.98)

get it.

Andrew Gillis (01:29:11.734)

Well, I mean, it was cool. It was cool and good.

Stephen Means (01:29:13.797)

I’m not saying it wasn’t Cool doesn’t equal best though. It just makes it cool. And so I think his case would have been just as strong. It’s just the field would have had a stronger case as well. So maybe he doesn’t, but he finishes second and not fourth, which is what he finished. okay, maybe he finished, but what if he wins it and then wins a national title? Then he’s still in the conversation with Cam Newton and Joe Burrow as I won an Addy and a national championship in the same year. I just think that’s a different resume.

that nobody else on this list would have. Troy Smith almost had it, but they lost the national championship game. Archies has two Heisman trophies, but he didn’t have national championship. It just, those Michigan losses for CJ are the difference between him being 20th and only getting 37 % of the vote while Ted Gunn Jr. got 63 % of the vote and CJ Shroud maybe being a top four seed.

Andrew Gillis (01:30:10.264)

There’s this run of Michigan in the last couple of years has really kind of, especially when you lay it out in this format, has really kind of made you think, man, this really hurts some guys on this list. It really changed the, sure, right, but I think he’s probably the face of a group of people where, what if Ohio State

Stephen Means (01:30:28.919)

I him more than most.

Andrew Gillis (01:30:40.462)

beat Michigan in 2024. And then the playoff unfolds the same way where they do play Texas and like Jack’s like, like I understand it all. But like, or even if you beat Michigan in 2023, and then you lose to Alabama, like if you just give these guys one Michigan win, I think Marvin Harrison, like I said, Marvin Harrison Jr, we’re probably talking about him differently. Because maybe he’s a Heisman Trophy winner in that scenario. Maybe he’s maybe he’s in the in the different conversation with Jack Sawyer with CJ.

The career was there, like you said, the stats were there, the accolades were there, the talent was there, the ability was there. But a lot of your aura and a lot of your moments can be gained from beating Michigan, right? lot of those moments can be gained. Like imagine I’m not using a specific play, but imagine, you know, he throws a bomb and they go up by seven with eight minutes left against Michigan. For a lot of people, that’s going to be a moment that they remember for a long time.

You know, I’m not even saying anything specific. He throws a last second Hail Mary and they wouldn’t even say anything crazy. You just you have a great play against Michigan. People are going to remember that like was Anthony Gonzalez went up and made that great catch against Michigan in the big house like 20 years ago and he made and then Ohio State scored later in that drive. Like people remember stuff like that. And if you make a great throw in a Michigan game like that and you win, people will remember that. And I think CJ was definitely hurt by that. And you’re right.

Stephen Means (01:31:44.308)

it’s just, yeah.

Andrew Gillis (01:32:09.282)

the he is probably the poster child and the face of that group of people to say, man, we probably talk about them in a little bit of a different way. Had they just won one of those games at least.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:32:25.03)

poster child for maybe the Connor Sallions thing.

Stephen Means (01:32:28.069)

I mean, just, like you just said earlier, Stefan, Jack Sawyer is seven on this list. And if they don’t win a national championship, he might not be on the list at all. Okay, CJ doesn’t have anything. He doesn’t have any big 10 championships. He doesn’t have a Heisman Trophy. He doesn’t have any records. He doesn’t have any wins over Michigan and he’s number 20.

Andrew Gillis (01:32:29.475)

Maybe.

Stephen Means (01:32:52.687)

So where does he go if he has those things? I think the point...

Stefan Krajisnik (01:32:54.704)

Yeah, I think the immediate NFL success probably helps this case a little bit too.

Stephen Means (01:32:59.639)

It does, but there’s also, I think sometimes when you’re not living in it and you can go back and listen, man, CJ was kind of really, really good. You just live in the bubble. The play that will always, I think, define the CJ Strouter for me, this play had nothing to do with counter-strikes. At least I think. It’s more, CJ hadn’t run all year. And so it had become a thing that CJ doesn’t run. And then in the Michigan game in 2021, he ran, he ran for like a 15, 20 yard touchdown. And it’s his moment.

This is, it’s still a competitive game. State’s losing, they need to go score. CJ takes off and he gets into the end zone. And I can already see it. if they win this game, he’s gonna win the Heisman Trophy. And this is the moment they’re gonna play. Like this is moment that he doesn’t have the Heisman moment. Yeah, he’s got, just smacked Michigan State, but he doesn’t have a moment. He’s just a really good football player. This is it. This is his highlight moment.

when we’re looking back on his Heisman Trophy season 40 years from now, they’re gonna be playing this. You hadn’t run all year, you finally scramble and you go get a touchdown against Michigan. Holding offense number 75, 10 yard penalty repeat, I think it was third down. Thayer Munford got a holding call with Aiden Hutchinson. Like that’s the CJ Stroud era to me. CJ did the thing that we asked him to do.

and it didn’t matter because holding call or because Jackson’s hurt or because Marv got knocked down in the Peach Bowl in the third quarter or the defense gave up an explosive play for the 70th time against Oregon. It was always something that had nothing to do with CJ Stroud that got in the way of CJ Stroud when he showed us every single time that he could do it. So unfortunately, CJ Stroud makes the bracket.

But he loses to a guy who might be the fastest player Ohio State’s ever seen.

Stephen Means (01:35:04.729)

We sticking with Jack Tatum,

Andrew Gillis (01:35:07.5)

Yeah, I read his book. They call me assassin. That was in high school.

Stephen Means (01:35:11.267)

Well, well I mean, he did. Distinguish with like a word.

Andrew Gillis (01:35:17.1)

Yeah, Jack Tatum was a fearsome hitter though. yeah, I’ll go with him. Two time national champion.

Stephen Means (01:35:28.163)

You sticking with it? Stefan? Tatum?

Stefan Krajisnik (01:35:33.242)

Yeah, I am. I also clicked his name and hit submit already, so it doesn’t really do us much good if I change my mind.

Stephen Means (01:35:36.293)

But a text already told us listen you go as many times you want do whatever you want

Stefan Krajisnik (01:35:42.494)

That is true. Should I go in and now vote for Chris Carter and give us another 50-50?

Stephen Means (01:35:47.301)

Please don’t, please don’t do that.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:35:49.35)

I’m sticking with jack tan though

Stephen Means (01:35:56.988)

Jack Tatum has 151 to 49.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:36:04.976)

That rocks.

Stephen Means (01:36:06.981)

There’s four votes between them.

Andrew Gillis (01:36:09.806)

That’s kind of crazy. It’s too close to call. Does that mean we have to go to like paper balloting? We have to do a hand recount once we get to the end of the list.

Stephen Means (01:36:11.887)

That’s insane.

Stephen Means (01:36:17.519)

Probably. Probably.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:36:19.91)

I’m sure Stephen would love more work. Thank you, Gillis.

Stephen Means (01:36:23.045)

exactly what I wanna do with my time. 51 % to 49%, Jack Tatum moves on. So that’s the first round.

Our second round is gonna be fun. We’ll start the second round tomorrow. That will be the sweet 16. The matchups are going to be Archie Griffin as the number one seed against number 16, Howard Hopalong Cassidy. Troy Smith as the number two seed versus number 15 seed, Jack Tatum, who barely, buzzer beater beats out Chris Carter as the

Stefan Krajisnik (01:36:55.174)

Now we need to find out is Jack Tate I’m gonna be too exhausted to win again or does he just get hot? We got through the first round, now he’s unstoppable.

Stephen Means (01:36:59.783)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:37:04.471)

Number three, Eddie George versus number 19, Chick Harley. Number four, Chris Spielman versus number 13, Ted Gunn Jr. Number five, JT Barrett versus number 12, Braxton Miller, which I think is gonna be a fun conversation tomorrow. Number six, Orlando Pace versus number 11, Mike Doss. Number seven, Jack Sawyer versus number 10, James Laurinaitis. I think that might be fun too.

And number eight Ezekiel Elliott versus number nine AJ Hawks. So all but one of the higher seeds won their first round matchups. The only loser is Chris Carter as no, excuse me is a Justin Fields losing to Chick Harley as a 19 seed. What a great first round. And now we can start to really have some heated debates. I think all these are interesting conversations about.

past, present and future with the Ohio State Buckeyes. Get the text 614-350-3315. This survey is out right now. It’s two week free trial. So you’ll get to participate in this completely for free and really get essentially the rest of the month of May for free. And then recruiting starts to pick right back up. Though recruiting never ends, man. Recruiting never sleeps, which means Andrew never sleeps. 614-3500-3315, two week free trial, 399 after that. For Stefan Kreisnick and Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means and that was Buckeyes Talk.